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Wednesday 22 October  

Network Europe - MEPs say Sarkozy's move to expel the Roma is illegal

On air: 26 August 2010 16:50 (Photo: Flickr/edublogger)

More about:

Network Europe - 26 August 2010:

  • Should they stay or should they go? MEPs say Sarkozy's move to expel the Roma is illegal;
  • Prague under fire: could Czech arms deals be fuelling the war in Yemen?
  • Human warmth: how commuters in Stockholm are generating enough energy to heat a 13-storey building;
  • And the Ukrainian music festival that's a world of its own.

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Discussion

jasmin 30 August 2010 - 7:01pm / India

Sir Hiram and Rajiv Thind, you both are fighting for all the people who don't think twice before committing crimes against others....so let there be peace, at least here.... And Rajiv Thind should not make fun of knighthood of Sir Hiram. @ Rajiv Thind: Is this the kind of tolerance you are teaching?

Rajiv Thind 1 September 2010 - 3:27pm / Christchurch, New Zealand

Jasmin I don't understand what you mean by Hiram and I were fighting ''for'' all the people who commit crimes. As far as I can see we had a good discussion. Constructive arguments lead to better understanding of issues. In summation my point was that when most people use the word ''RELIGION'' or ''RELIiGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM'' why only Muslim fundamentalists should be picked on?

As my previous comments mention there are lots of progressive and even secular Muslims in many other parts of the world. I have personally known many friendly, progressive, open minded and liberal Muslims from Malaysia and other parts of the world. I don't want anyone to lump them (and all other progressive and noble Muslims) with other fanatics and criminals.

By the way, Fundamentalists, nut-jobs, violent criminals exist within all religions or religious denominations. As far as I know you live in India. I am sure you know there are enough violent, fanatic Hindus too like the ones who burned a Christian missionary and his two little children alive while they were sleeping in their vehicle...(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3129222.stm)...

And also those fanatic Hindus who raped and butchered more than one thousand innocent Muslim civilians in Gujarat in 2002. That's one heinous massacre of defenseless Muslims committed by fanatic Hindus. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7069809.stm)

And I have no idea where you got this love for ''Knighthood'' from. But each to their own. You can continue to call Hiram Sir, Knight etc. and I will stick to Hiram as the man himself prefers to be called.

Kapish?

To Hiram and all the people in the world. Shalom!

Rajiv Thind 1 September 2010 - 3:25pm / Christchurch, New Zealand

Jasmin I don't understand what you mean by Hiram and I were fighting ''for'' all the people who commit crimes. As far as I can see we had a good discussion. Constructive arguments lead to better understanding of issues. In summation my point was that when most people use the word ''RELIGION'' or ''RELIiGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM'' why only Muslim fundamentalists should be picked on?

As my previous comments mention there are lots of progressive and even secular Muslims in many other parts of the world. I have personally known many friendly, progressive, open minded and liberal Muslims from Malaysia and other parts of the world. I don't want anyone to lump them (and all other progressive and noble Muslims) with other fanatics and criminals.

By the way, Fundamentalists, nut-jobs, violent criminals exist within all religions or religious denominations. As far as I know you live in India. I am sure you know there are enough violent, fanatic Hindus too like the ones who burned a Christian missionary and his two little children alive while they were sleeping in their vehicle...(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3129222.stm)...

And also those fanatic Hindus who raped and butchered more than one thousand innocent Muslim civilians in Gujarat in 2002. That's one heinous massacre of defenseless Muslims committed by fanatic Hindus. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7069809.stm)

And I have no idea where you got this love for ''Knighthood'' from. But each to their own. You can continue to call Hiram Sir, Knight etc. and I will stick to Hiram as the man himself prefers to be called.

Kapish?

To Hiram and all the people in the world. Shalom!

Hiram2 30 August 2010 - 7:39pm

Thanks, Jasmin but I was not fighting! I was attemtping to explain the Modus operandi of the persons who commit terrorism in the name of Islam and how the Modus operandi leads towards the teachings of Islam. Just call me Hiram, please or idiot , it really doesn't make a difference. I don't get offended by names or titles unless people commit numerous crimes in the name of religion. Then, It becomes a M. O. ( Modus operandi ) and then it should be investigated as any other crime. In closing, I bid you namaste (Anjali Mudra ).

Rajiv Thind 28 August 2010 - 4:31pm / Christchurch, New Zealand

Sarkozy isn't brave he is clever (like Mr. Berlusconi of Italy who expelled Roma from Rome). If majority of French voters want mass deportations of Roma it's in Sarkozy's personal interests to bend over and give people what they want. Politicians (i.e. MOST politicians, let's hope there are rare exceptions...) are never brave, they only know how to bend over and sell out.

Also, I guess it is the European way to pick on minorities (preferably racial and religious) and weakest sections of the society when faced with wider and deeper problems. Hitler also picked on Roma in his murderous heydays (He slaughtered about 1 million Roma in his mass murder factories). In Central and Eastern European countries there is well entrenched anti-Roma racism and persecution.

What is more interesting is: who will be the next victims of this scapegoating? Muslims? Maybe they're too many and too united to be picked on, at least in France. But you never know.

And by the way, should every society deport, banish, exterminate its weakest and troubled sections rather than finding ways to reform their condition? To me it just sounds like Nazi style extermination of mentally and physically disabled...is it not?

How about all the right wing politicians of European Union build a new little country and expel all Neo Nazis to that country? I mean junkie, glue sniffing, violent and criminal Neo Nazis exist in all European countries...but they all get to live in their countries...is it because they all happen to be White and Roma are not? What if people of some other European nationality are proven to be running gangs and organized crime in France would Mr. Sarcozy be courageous enough to deport all Europeans of that nationality back to their country? I think not.

Roma are easy targets and they won't even fight back because they're so used to getting kicked around in Europe for hundreds of years.

Anonymous 28 August 2010 - 5:18am
Anonymous 28 August 2010 - 1:31am / Lalaland

Life is short, but its ills make it seem long. Life is a foreign language: all men mispronounce it.

eslaporte 27 August 2010 - 8:57pm / USA

It is impressive how hate and bigotry has gone so global. We see the unabashed reactions, on this forum and other forums, including in forums related to racial, ethnic and religious minorities - and it is so frightening what is happening in the Western world!

The problem in Europe is that the courts simply are too weak to defend people's basic human rights, which often hang in the balance at the ballot box at election time. Those that think this is something good probably believe that Hitler's programs against German Jews (much like Geert Widlers wants for NL), was good for integrating a "problem minority."

People are entitled to basic food, shelter and health care - as we are all human beings. People should also be entitled to useful work and the ability of self development. There is a right-wing extremist ilk, that is transatlantic in nature, that is loud and obnoxious (a mob is accurate), that wants to take us backwards in social-economic development and is currently promoting Islamophobia and hate for minorities as a solution to economic and social ills. There long-term solutions they do not say - as bring back the gas and ovens could be a part of it. some of this ilk wait for the "new Hitler"- and this "new Hitler" is likely be talk and blond and speak Dutch.

The fall of the Anne Frank tree in Amsterdam should not go un-noticed - as it is a dark and frightening omen that we should take pause to reflect on.

Hiram2 28 August 2010 - 12:32am

"There is a right-wing extremist ilk, that is transatlantic in nature, that is loud and obnoxious (a mob is accurate), that wants to take us backwards in social-economic development and is currently promoting Islamophobia and hate for minorities as a solution to economic and social ills."......When you said "take us backwards", you give the impression that the Western societies were progressing forewards. If, I may ask: Why is one part of the "right-wing extremist ilk" when one can easily see the crimes committed by Muslims in the name of Islamic Jihad? If you saw someone or several people murdering innocent people, wouldn't you want to stop the crime? Wouldn't you yell to let everyone know of the danger or would you just keep on minding your own business and let the criminals get away? Oliver Holmes (a US supreme court judge) once stated in a case on free speech that one does not have a right to yell fire in a theater that is not on fire. In the case of Islamic Jihad, the world (theater) is on fire and people like Wilders need to yell in a very loud voice about the dangers. If one is classified as " Islamophobia" for yelling about the dangers Jihad terrorists, then so be it. Maybe in your perception, the world was moving forward but the wars which are being fought today in the name of a holy war shows a lack of progression...........As to your statement "People are entitled to basic food, shelter and health care - as we are all human beings.", you left off "security and safety" from criminals and terrorists. I agree (my perception) that humans regardless of where they reside deserve to be treated with the items of which you spoke but there are numerous more more rights which everybody doesn't agree. Without safety and security one will never get the basic food, water, and medical care. One has a natural right to defend one's life against criminals and terrorists.

Rajiv Thind 28 August 2010 - 4:01pm / Christchurch, New Zealand

Hiram: Criminals and terrorists...yeah right. Your ''criminals and terrorists'' must always be Muslims. That's what you're all about..beating the same old drum of hatred against Muslims like Nazis against Jews during Third Reich. But I wonder and wonder if you really stand by your assertions and consider yourself so brave and courageous why cannot you have the courage to at least use your real name instead of hiding behind fake and fancy pseudonyms like Hiram, Knight Hiram and all that baloney. It makes me laugh. But as for your blatant Islamophobia I wrote in detail in other post that you don't seem to have read. So here is encore for you:

Hiram: I don't think you're Islamophobic. I think Your paranoia is showing up masking itself as Islamophobia. If I resort to psychoanalysis this very well might be because you're a die hard fan of Rush Limbaugh's talk radio shows and that your favorite author is Ann Coulter.

Fundamentalism and intolerance is an ugly ugly thing, I agree. Muslims seem more prone to it than other religions maybe because Muslims have such huge numbers and most of them live in non Western countries and come from conservative Cultures and are brainwashed by theocratic set up of their societies. Many other smaller religions are as fundamentalist and have all that honor killings, subjugation of women and homophobia...but of course they don't get talked about by Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter because it's not best seller material, the Money Maker. If dirty fanatics exist anywhere in the world ''THEY MUST BE MUSLIMS!'' seems to be the catch phrase that you subscribe to like such a zealot...such a crusader (no pun intended)

But apparently fundamentalism and intolerance exists even within Christendom. Hitler's Germany was both European (Lily White, Swastika clad solid Aryan kind you might say) and also Christian..... and look they slaughtered millions of Jews, Roma, homosexuals (that's Triple intolerance for you, killing people for their Religion, Race and Sexual Orientation!!!) and others on an industrial scale. Some scholars have suggested that people like you who get violently worked up about Muslims in Europe are going to lead the next Holocaust of Europe.... it will be Muslim minorities packed to concentration camps and people like you doing little song and dance thing, I hope not! Some people are terrible singers and dancers you know....

These days, In Uganda and neighboring African countries a thuggish militia operates by the name of Lord's Resistance army. They loot, pillage, kill men, rape and torture women, chop off their breasts, mutilate their bodies... and claim that their aim is to establish a nation based on Biblical Ten Commandments. Well, there's some naughty 'Christians' for you. But but Hiram you will of course say, ''These bastards are not Christians!' Why? Because they are Black? ''Umm ... Ummm..,' you will say, ''Not because they're Black... ummm.. ummm.. because they don't represent Christianity, that's bloody why!!!!'' Then I will say, 'Exactly Hiram, in the same way, stupid fanatics and misled young men like the ones who flew jet planes into WTC DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM!!!! You GOT IT NOW HIRAM??''

As for conspiracy theorists, even though they may be partially or fully wrong, They still have the right to express their opinion because you know, ''IT'S A FREE COUNTRY MAN!!'' as the saying goes. Some of these ''conspiracy theorists'' are right that response to the 9/11 attacks while they were taking place was sluggish and unprofessional at first... like it was in Katrina.

I am not sure how True Muslims those jet plane hijackers were as I am not sure how true American Timothy McVeigh was....the Oklahoma City bomber... Remember....? I wonder if you think He had secretly converted to Islam before his terrorist attack against innocent civilians. Do you now??

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