That's nonsense, Mr or Mrs Anonymous. All that's known about the Alphen gunman, according to the Dutch Public Prosecutor, is that the he was mentally unstable, was deeply interested in disasters and had a suicidal tendency on record. 

David Berridge, I don't prefer any specific cal. I have carried .45 and 9mm. I don't normally carry a weapon on my person. I don't think there should be any "compulsory" requirements and except for one and thatis being a U.S. citizen. My Second Amendment right to own and possess a weapon and my right to protect myself from those who would harm me is sufficient requirements. People should be educated in the use of firearms but the Constitution doesn't require it. All rights have some limitations and free speech is a good comparison. Americans have a right to free speech as long as they don't yell fire in a theater that is not on fire; well, citizens who own guns should have some training to ensure that they are capable of using a gun in the public. As to NRA, it is a good organisation that stands-up and defends the Second Amendment from those who would the right. In closing, if you have read any of the papers of those men who wrote the Constitution you would have found that the Second Amendment is a defense against a strong central government from abusing the freedoms of it's citizens. Governments that take away guns or attempt to take away guns are afraid of it's citizens. Question: If European countries are concerned about human life, why do European nations make and sell weapons to other countries? Pistols and revolvers are made in Spain, Italy, Switizerland, and other nations and sold in the U.S. and other countries? These same countries make and sell military equipment that end-up in nations where the governments slaughter their own people with the weapons made by European citizens. (This last one is why Americans are given a right to own guns.) David it would be nice to live in a world where all humans are treated with dignity and respect but as you know there is no such place and until then, humans have a right to protect their lives from those who would destroy it.

I suppose the SWISS law mandating that all men carry firearms is also borne of a fear -- including fear of our European leaders.
----- Perhaps that is why HITLER ran over NETHERLANDS in ONE DAY and didn't even bother trying to invade the SWISS despite the vast wealth we held. MILOSEVIC also had such an easy time filling mass graves as non-Serbs had less arms...until those "mentally ill, fearful, paranoid, violent" AMERICANS came along both times and helped ANTI-GUN EUROPEANS excise despots because the DUTCH and most Continental nations besides SWITZERLAND were unprepared to defend themselves, like helpless children...but the US didn't help until after so many people with the same mentality as bugs here DIED (kaput, fin, forever)...but hey at least they died with their moral-superiority and smug arrogance about "gun-happy Americans" intact. (and then they "bravely" watched the Nazis take away Jewish-Dutch and homosexuals, or even told Nazis where the Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies were hiding...suddenly, the DUTCH weren't "FEARLESS" enough (as bugs claims his people have no "fear") to tell the Nazis "Fuck off" when they pumped (or tortured) the Dutch for information...and TODAY, the DUTCH are similarly too gutless to defend themselves from radical-Islamists who want to go berserk and shoot up Dutch towns like Nazis once did; if you want freedoms for drugs (including liquor), sex-workers, funny drawings of Allah, homosexuality, abortion, etc...you'd better be prepared to fight some Islamofascists who shoot at you because they hate those freedoms). At some point, having no fear becomes suicidal, just ask those in BELARUS if they wish now that they had as much access to guns as LUKASHENKO's police thugs do. On a smaller scale of death, but tragedies nonetheless, Theo Van Gogh, Pim Fortuyn, people attending the Dutch queen's celebration getting run over by a man using a CAR as his murder-weapon, now a madman with a fully-auto rifle in Netherlands: It's better to be alive and judged by 12 than to be carried by 6, and at some point saying that you are not afraid of violence and like to be unarmed in a nation where those hostile to your culture slaughter you like sheep will become sheer stupidity in quite obvious ways (dying violently when you could have lived more happy years: what else is more self-destructive/stupid?), rather than bravery.
----- So, I know where I would rather live, too: where the common people are
(#1.) better armed and protected than the DUTCH, BUT
(#2.) have less reasons to use their guns than the AMERICANS (or many Latino nations, Balkans, Belarusians, or South Africans... take your pick -- they all have high murder rates, despite their strict gun laws.
----- The Dutch don't learn from their past mistakes, and say: "It will never happen here again, it can't happen here again, it..." Very few DUTCH have enough sensibility to prepare themselves against the next European despot (or Islamofascists), and act as though they will rely again and again on those "mentally ill, violent" AMERICANS and their guns (or rely on the VERY few DUTCH who are "mentally ill and violent" enough to join the military...) to come save the gutless unprepared DUTCH, FRENCH, etc again. As Americans are much weaker economically than in WWII, what if they don't help NL the next time? What if they stay neutral and protect themselves like we Swiss did in WWII? Smoke a bit more weed, Dutchmen, it keeps you peaceful and if Americans legalize it, would they become as peaceful as the Dutch?? Unfortunately for you, Muslims don't smoke weed and think you should be beheaded if you drink liquor or smoke weed, so do us all a favour, smoke some weed, unarmed, in front of some Muslims. ;) Just kidding but the point here...
----- The point here is that if you want the freedoms that Dutch enjoy but Muslims violently oppose, at some point -- perhaps not today, but perhaps soon -- you'd better pick up your balls and be willing to defend your _selves_ from said Muslims like we SWISS do: You hear no stories about Muslims, or foreigners generally, coming into Switzerland and trying to fuck with such a heavily-armed MILITIA (not even so much a military as a MILITIA, of motivated people who know our native terrain better than foreigners); better background-checks on the foreigners might be giving us an advantage over NL, too...
----- instead of expecting those AMERICANS -- whom you DUTCH curse -- to come and save you ingrateful idiots from your own senseless unpreparedness/disarmament again.

Bugs, if one of your fellow citizens of the Netherlands was trying to kill you, would you not violently try to defend your life, or the life of another person who is being attacked? Personally, I would rather live in a country where I could defend my self, family, and anyone who is being threaten with harm. If the government will not protect you, then you have a right (not a privilege) to defend yourself. You might not care about being attacked but I am positive a lot of Dutch citizens would defend their lives, families, and innocent citizens who are being threaten.

Here in Switzerland a gun must be in every non-felon man's house BY LAW, but our murder rate is as low as NL and we never care or worry about being shot here, despite that we are more well armed than NL, and even more well armed than North Americans...

Opposite examples include South Africans and most of Latin America, who have less guns than North Americans but higher murder rates. Balkans also have strict gun laws, but bad murder rates.

When we look at the whole world -- all nations rather than cherry-picking only the US versus EU-16 nations -- we see that low gun availability and strict laws doesn't always correlate to lower per-capita murder rates, so other factor(s) must be causing some societies to have more murder than heavily-armed Switzerland. Cultural acceptance of violence in South Africa (poorly armed) and cultural acceptance of violence in the US and Latin America (decently armed, but still less arms than Switzerland) is likely one factor that gives these nations a higher murder rate than heavily armed Switzerland, because certainly a lack of guns in Switzerland is not what gives us a lower murder rate than US and South Africa!

"Noone ever cares about being shot here, just compare the stats to America"...no, compare also NL versus the stats in Switzerland...and compare to Balkans, where gun laws are as strict as most of Europe, but murder is still high.

"Noone ever cares about being shot here, just compare the stats to America, do guns really save lives there?"

Noted by whom?

Gun owners are actually more likely to be uni graduates (http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt)...which doesn't equate to IQ, but it's more evidence than you've presented, and it suggests that anti-gun lobbyists might be the stupider of th 2 groups.

As far as I can tell, you're repeating a canard that's been stated repeatedly by internet-bullshitters w/o any of them providing verification, whihch only impugns the credibility of so many anti-gun advocates. "It is noted that" the "liar/bullshitter" detector goes off when I observe those like "Anonymous" making such claims without a shred of proof. ;-)

"It is noted that" those who need to use unfounded "facts" such as "Anonymous" often realize that they have no rational/logical defense (indeed, Aristotle, the initiator of systemized logic, called it a logically "fallacious" argument... and Cicero, the famous Ancient Greek debator, observed this). Your post has zero credibility unless you can back up that claim, and show that some factors aren't skewing the results: e.g. People who live in higher-crime neighborhoods tend to need a gun more, but they arrived in that higher-crime neighborhood possbly by not being too bright... high-value targets in the wealthiest neighborhoods, in contrast, will often hire several non-wealthy people to protect their house and/or the entire wealthy development or neighborhood; many businessmen got wealthy by being smart, and they might hire many people with less opportunities/lower IQ to be bodyguards even INSIDE the mansion...yet hiring armed bodyguards exhibits an advocacy/realization that being near guns constantly is worth the risk if you're a high-value target.

Should we deny guns (and driving permits) to those with low IQ? Some people with high IQ carry guns (including some I know personally: often they're high-value scientists, as well as businessmen like myself, who are carrying because they're high-value targets rather than out of paranoia). Perhaps we should mandate a minimum of 120 IQ for anyone applying to become police (or military for a combat role), then we'd have less friendly-fire incidents, and less Amadou Diallo's getting shot? Better yet, maybe we'd obtain honest & competent politicians if only the top 1% of IQ's could VOTE... I'd personally benefit, as my IQ was tested for a sensitive job long ago...but my capacity to THINK of all the consequences also tells me it's a bad idea and that I should accept that smart AND dumb people disagree with my political beliefs (i.e. tells me not to be an arrogant douchebag in the same manner that "Anonymous" tried to be dismissive/derisive of all those who disagree with his gun ideology).

Last but not least, what is the apparent-IQ of somebody who refused to be prepared to defend himself, after I have my Kaibil bodyguards shoot him & draw a fake moustache on him, piss on his severed head, take his money, rape his wife, etc? She'll think you're a real genius after that happens.

Where do you get that statistic? I own a shotgun and have more in the past. My IQ is regularly measured at above 125 (not genius, but above average) and I have an advanced degree (MBA) from a large US University.

Where do you get that statistic? I own a shotgun and have more in the past. My IQ is regularly measured at above 125 (not genius, but above average) and I have an advanced degree (MBA) from a large US University.

When gun ownership goes up, accurate aiming goes up. In a scrap, I would rather have a good shot than a stimulating conversationalist cover my back.

"We don't see it as our right to be able to defend ourselves with arms...Our right is to demand that our governments ensure our safety through the funding we provide anyway and anyone that carries a legal weapon is well trained and its misuse punished."...What you are saying: The Europeans do not have a right to defend themselves from those who would murder them; therefore, life is not a right but a privilege given to them by the government. You also stated "We do not idolize a place where everyone can defend themselves but a place where nobody has to."...And, where is this place? In the Netherlands where violence is on the increase? Go tell the family and friends of those who lost loved ones. I bet anyone of those innocent humans would have defended their lives with any means possible, if they would have been given a chance; but, how do you get a chance when you have no way to protect yourself. The government doesn't care about your safety. The Europeans laws are oppressive and that is why you have no right to own guns. They are afraid of you and they know you can not stand-up to their tyranny without the means to defend yourselves. There is no such place of which you spoke.

Prachtig antwoord. Well said!

You say "in Europe the culture is different and our image of the use of firearms is negative"... All Swiss men without a criminal record not only can, but MUST, keep a gun...so you can say Netherlands, but not all of Europe, has that difference from American culture. By the way, how did having an unarmed society work out for NL when Hitler steamrolled over your nation in one day? :-)

How would you have fared as a Kosovar or Bosnian under Milosevic if you had no guns with which to resist? (Well hey, at least you'd have died in those mass graves with your moral-superiority intact.) I suppose the term "never again" is lost on anyone saying "we don't see it as our right to be able to defend ourselves with arms" and you might not mind if you find yourself in a mass grave like Jews/gypsies or Kosovars...or like those killed today in Alphen aan den Rijn, after leaving themselves with no more defense than a lamb has in a slaughterhouse, or an unarmed Kosovar had in the 1990's Balkans, etc.

One area where Swiss culture is different from USA is the murder rate. We are living proof that a nation can be well armed, and still not have a high murder rate. Even canada has somewhat high gun ownership, but a low murder rate. Then a nation like Greece or France can have very few guns compared to the US, but many more riots in which innocent people are killed. It makes me think that the problem some nations have is a matter of lacking a peaceful mindset, not a matter of how many guns are present, or how strict the laws are.

"to demand that our governments ensure our safety through..."
So, did your government keep the Dutch safe from this man with the maschine gun? Did they keep Theo Van Gogh safe? Did they keep the crowd safe when a lunatic in 2009 tried to run over the Queen?? The fact that Theo Van Gogh, or the unfortunate unarmed Dutch were killed means that, according to you, Dutch "society has fallen and dissolved..." and I say that because "...a place where nobody has to [defend themslves]" does not exist -- not in Netherlands, not in Switzerland, not in USA.

In addition to not speaking for all of Europe (whether low crime CH Switzerland with guns, or high crime Montenegro with guns... and I do hope you also realize that the Balkans are a part of Europe, So, how do you think that you were speaking for all of Europe, including the violent Balkans, when you made that statement about how "Europeans" feel "different" about guns??), you don't even speak for all Dutch, and what would you tell to someone in Alphen aan den Rijn who died today, and would have liked a gun and might have defended himself if not for your Borg-like group-think of "we don't see it as..."? Some DO see it as an issue of individual self-defence rights, and more will see it that way as crimes by radical Islamists, lunatic lone gunmen who have access to a fully-automatic rifle (or even a car, as that murderer used, perhaps as he could not obtain a gun...exibiting that people will find ways to kill, if deprived of guns: and that is yet MORE evidence that it is more a matter of peaceful mindset, not gun laws or availability of guns), or mad Balkan or German politicians (or maybe Dutch ones next; the National Front is actually gaining ground in many nations), etc occur.

I even remember when the Nazis bombed the UK, and the Brits needed to ask American farmers to give them guns, as even an enemy pilot ejecting over Brit farms in southern England couldn't be captured easily without those evil Yanks and their gun-culture being literally imported into southern England, as the vast rural farms were too large for the military to patrol...suddenly, the Brits loved Americans for their gun-culture because the Brits were caught unprepared for war. It was not so long ago, and no, Europeans haven't changed that much since then...

The National Front is even gaining in the legislatures in much of Europe.

You seem to think of how Europe is today, and ignore even the recent history, ignore that society CAN, yet again, become "fallen and dissolve". Many Europeans even supported the Fascists up until a few years before Hitler started invading them, my point being that you never know when war is around the corner in a few years. You make your choices and live with them, and we Swiss will do the opposite...and we'll stay neutral and not save you or others who suicidally were caught unarmed by Milosevic or Hitler or the next EU tyrant (if the Yanks wise up, maybe they also won't save you morally-superior unarmed Dutch/British lemmings next time; really, at the core of it, you are acting as "free riders" and relying on the good charity of those gun-happy Americans and their large military to come solve Europe's problems the next time a Milosevic or Hitler, or even a Gadafi, comes along in OUR backyard but we rely on the US to take care of wars in Europe's backyard, even now that they have a lower GDP than the EU. So, thanks, Yanks (suckers)!